There was no election in 1980 - Museveni

FLASHBACK
There was no election in 1980 - Museveni in The Monitor, Friday March 15-18, 1996
As peace talks went on between GEN Tito Okello Lutwa’s military Council/UNLA and Yoweri Museveni’s NRM/A in Nairobi 1985, following Milton Obote’s overthrow on July 27, JOHN GACHIE - Kenya Times Foreign correspondent took time off to interview Museveni. We return to that moment – about two months before NRA stormed kampala and handed power over to Museveni:
Kenya times: when you say you are not ambitious then what are you?
Museveni: we’ve got aims, we have aims. One of our aims is dignity; dignity for the African people I told you that I went to Mozambique in 1968. You cannot say that I wanted to be the president of Mozambique. But our Aim has always been dignity for the African people and dignity can mean a number of things.
One is independence: alright political independence that is;
Two, a decent level of living; economically the Africans must have all these things – decent life; they must have meals, they must have proteins, they must have carbohydrates, they must have good houses.
That’s what we mean by dignity of the African people. They must have a government that respects them. Like in Uganda you find the soldiers of the regime have been stripping women naked, raping them. That’s not dignity to the African people; that is indignity. So, that’s one of the things we are fighting for, the dignity of the African people. And as I have said, the dignity of the African people means a lot of things in economic terms, political terms, human rights, their democratic rights. That’s what we have been fighting for.
KENYA TIMES: Now since the formation of the NRM or since you went into the bush in 1981, we have never had your political or ideological stand. It has never been clear, some have called you a Marxist others a socialist, what are you?
Museveni: I am a nationalist. As I have said, if you listened to what I said about the African people, you will find that it is linked to national consciousness. So our main stand in ideological terms is nationalism, patriotism – love for our country – Uganda and Africa in general. That is our line. About Marxism, I know what Marxism is all about, what capitalism is all about, what the different philosophers said at different times. We are aware of what is being talked about but as far as Uganda is concerned and as far as Africa is concerned, we don’t think that what Uganda needs is Marxism. We think what Uganda needs is development even on Capitalistic basis if it benefits our people because a programmes is like a suit, you go and measure yourself and see what suit fits you. You are not going to go and put on Museveni’s suit and say that you are dressing nicely. You go and have yourself measured, then they will make the suit which is equal to your size, in the waist, in the legs, in the chest. It seems to me that Museveni never knew that capitalism can generate growth but no development and it looks clear to me that from the word go, Museveni has never had a clear ideology. His politics is not ideologically –oriented – he has had no ideological orientation.
KENYA TIMES: Well by then …
Museveni: The same with a political programme; in a country like Uganda, if you look at it, what is it? Mainly of peasants. They don’t have industries. These peasants are engaged in primitive form of Agriculture. Underdeveloped forms of Agriculture using a hand hoe. The population in Uganda is still small. I don’t agree with these people that Africa is overpopulated myself (and I agree with him: we have an increasing population but not overpopulated). I don’t subscribe to that view. Like in Uganda, the population is still small, it is only 15million people and Uganda is almost the size of Britain. UK is the same size as Uganda with a population of about 60m people.
In fact, Uganda is under populated. Therefore, the ideas of Marx as they were enunciated during the last century don’t fit in that kind of situation, because Marx was talking about as developed capitalist society with a big working class which didn’t own any property and who therefore had no interest in private property but wanted communal ownership of property because they had lost their property already.
In fact, Marx said, “you have nothing to lose but your chains”. If you remember he said something like that but our people are owners. Everybody owns a small plot of land, some property somewhere and some cows, so the Uganda society is a society of small owners. So you see you are talking of two different societies. For instance, capitalistic Europe in the last century or even today and backward Uganda. Because Uganda is a backward country, it has got a lot of resources but are not yet developed. Then you talk about two different things.
You can’t bring what Marx was talking in the last century because these are small owners. Small owners are interested in improving what they own. They want their small properties to expand so they have an interest in ownership and in improving the quality of that ownership. (sadly, when he came, he divested the citizens of all that belonged to the state). That’s Uganda now. On the other hand, the European countries like Germany when Marx was writing about them, like Britain, they had millions of working people who had no property at all and who couldn’t hope to have property, you see. So, if you talk about communal ownership of wealth, there you can argue with him.
But here, we are talking about a different situation. My mother and my father have no interest in communizing wealth. They have got interest in improving their small property because they already have some property. When the situation comes when we have got a huge population of people who don’t have property, maybe the people will start arguing whether property should be communal or not (COULD THIS BE THE TIME WHEN PEOPLE WANT PROPERTY TO BE COMMUNAL? HOW MANY PEOPLE ARE LANGUISHING WITHOUT ANY PROPERTY?) then the topic might be relevant but not now? – is it not surprising that you came when every Uganda had property and instead of developing industries to absorb the ever increasing population, now you see Ugandans without property, without jobs without anything. At least in the European countries you talked about, many people were workers although they were exploited by the capitalists? So are we capitalists? What are we? At least, I am sure we are neither socialists nor Marxists.
KENYA TIMES: Back to the question of capitalism or Marxism. You also know that capitalism as we know it today was started in the 19th century …. at least a polished and improved version.
Museveni: oh no. capitalism was started in the 15th century.
KENYA TIMES: So, it would be fair to say that you are not opposed to Marxism. It is only that it is not appropriate to the present situation?
Museveni: it’s inappropriate to our present situation.
KENYA TIMES: What is appropriate then, what kind of ideology or political system would fit the present situation?
Museveni: To answer the question of what is appropriate now, we should first answer the question of what are our problems, because you should answer questions. It’s easier. What is the problem of Africa today? The problem of Africa today is backwardness because when you are talking about capitalism or socialism, you are talking about developed societies. Both of them are developed you should have illusions about that.
They are advanced societies. Agriculture is advanced. Industries are advanced. Social services are advanced. But they are advanced in different ways. Tunaelelewana hapo Ndugu, tunaelewana? (Do we concur here, brother). And if you want to measure the level of development there are certain indicators you can use. For instance, we use the number of doctors per number of people. I mean how many persons per every available doctor? If you use that as criteria, if you go to UK maybe there are 520 persons per doctor. In Czechoslovakia maybe there are 580 persons or 540 and East Germany maybe 530 per every available doctor. You find that in these societies, there are very many doctors but if you go to Kenya, you find there may be 250,000 people per every available doctor, in Chad, the figure maybe 85,000 people per every available doctor. If you go to Tanzania which is supposed to be socialist and Kenya capitalist, you may find the figures almost the same or slightly higher but they are in the same category of developing countries while UK and Czechoslovakia are in the same category of advanced countries.
You can use income per capita, infant mortality rates or calories consumed per day per person to establish the level of development in any country. So, now if you use these tests, you will find that generally speaking, African countries are backward, whether they say, they are capitalists or socialists or whatever they say, they are backward. On the other hand West and East European countries are generally developed.
KENYA: Yes, but then..,.
Museveni: Then the debate, you wait, the debate is now about which is a more efficient form of a developing country. Some say, capitalism is better because it gives people incentives to work and so forth and so on (HOW ABOUT EXPLOITATION? HOW ABOUT A COMBINATION OF CAPITALISM AND UNEMPLOYMENT?). These are some of the arguments they advance. The socialists say NO. Socialist policies are more efficient because of centralized planning and so on and so forth. But what are they arguing about? It’s like people in this hotel arguing that this suite is better than the other one but it is the same hotel. While someone in Kawangware, (laughing) is arguing which slum is better than the other with his friend (UGANDANS ARE NOW ARGUING WHICH THIEF, WHICH MISMANAGER AND WHICH DICTATOR IS BETTER OF ALL THE DICTATORS WE HAVE HAD?). Yes you can have your own argument there. So I am telling you that the problem of Africa is backwardness, because if you understood political economy, there are things we call for instance, productive forces. Productive forces, mean science, technology and managerial capability, you know Si unisaidie! Bwana (help me).
You know what productive forces mean: science plus technology plus managerial capability of that society. Now you find that, we can talk about productive forces of African countries being backward while those of the developed countries are advanced.
So what Africa lacks is development.
KENYA: We are all agreed on that…
Museveni: the problem is backwardness and now to overcome this backwardness for me, and this is what we have proposed time and time again, not only NRM, which came just yeaterday but even before when we were in FRONASA and the UPM during the elections – we were promising a mixed economy which would be the best strategy to follow to overcome this backwardness by mixed economy.
We mean you could use capitalistic techniques and socialist techniques wherever applicable. For instance, the Kenya Commercial Bank, who owns it? Is it not government-owned? It’s a nationalised industry and nationalisation was first used by the socialists. It is a socialist technique and why did the Kenya government, for instance, use that technique? They were right because that was the only solution.
Otherwise, if they hadn’t set up the Commercial Bank of Kenya, the only other people who had the capital were foreigners. Now if they had gone with those foreigners controlling the loaning system of the financial houses in the country, they would have served the interests of the foreigners. So it was clever for the government of Kenya to try and own commercial financial institutions, because once you own them, then you might use them to give a loan to someone who might do something for the country (DID HE FORGET THAT AT A TIME UCB WAS SOLD), while if you don’t own them the foreign banks will not give you a loan if you want to establish a shoe-making company. If the shoe importing is done by foreign interests, they won’t allow it because of the control on the loaning policy.
On the other hand, like here in Kenya, the farms are owned by the private individuals. Now that is a capitalistic technique, because you are using private enterprise to run farms. So, for us we have always recommended that a mixed economy and approach, depending on the industry involved, may be the best way to overcome backwardness. If we attacked it cleverly you can be able within 15 -20 years, to overcome it.
KENYA TIMES: To probably leave the question of ideology …would you…
Museveni: No, we cannot leave it. We should only leave it when you absolutely sure of our position, because you should understand it. So we are saying therefore, the main problem is that of underdevelopment, we should get it out clearly.
KENYA TIMES: The main problem of the countries or Africa?
Museveni: Both, the main problem is the underdevelopment of the economy of the society because society is also underdeveloped and politics – because politics is also underdeveloped. Politics in Africa is very underdeveloped. That is why African governments are afraid of criticism and things like that – because they feel insecure.
Politically, we are underdeveloped. That’s why you find lack of democracy, because of insecurity. The regimes are insecure; they are afraid of people, afraid of different opinions and afraid of so many things at the same time. But if they were not afraid, then you can talk, like in England, you can go and talk and wear placards and nobody cares about you because you are not a threat to anybody.
KENYA TIMES: Would you allow that thing say in Uganda?
Museveni: W-e-l-l, … I think eh… the problem in Uganda and in other African countries as far as the political question is concerned, although there are many questions involved, political questions, economic questions and many other things, the position of Uganda and other Africa countries as far as the political question is concerned is lack of understanding the political problems on the part of the leaders as well as on those whom they are leading.
So that, you find that, they are sometimes arguing about the wrong things. I have told you about the question of parties in Uganda which are based partly on religious grounds. Some are Catholics, some are Protestants. Now this is not a correct demarcation. So, I am not sure whether to allow these people to continue fighting and arguing as Catholics and Protestants. Will that help the demarcation? So, it is not easy to say, allow the freedom of this or that. Me, I think the main problem would be to educate the population about their real interests because sometimes they are pushing other people’s interests – and then the bad elements use their ignorance to push their own interests – using the population and making the people forget about their real interests.
KENYA TIMES: Won’t you then be falling into the same trap that African leaders have fallen into time and time again, condescending; as it were leaders deciding, arrogating to themselves the right to decide who is a bad element or not. Won’t you be perpetuating a similar thing?
Museveni: Not for us. Not for us. Because for us we don’t arrogate ourselves if you say that there is a difference between Catholics and Protestants and that this difference is irreconcilable, we shall not agree with you. And it’s not arrogating ourselves the right to decide. We are not doing that because for us we ask ourselves: What is the difference between the Catholics and Protestants? They both need roads, clean water, social services and other amenities. If we tell them that these differences are artificial divisions and they tell us we have no right to tell them so, we shall tell them, well you are wrong and we are duty-bound to tell them they are wrong (LIKEWISE, THOSE WHO TELL M7 HE IS WRONG IN THE WAY HE COMPORTS HIMSELF AND RUNS GOVERNMENT ARE DUTY-BOUND TO TELL HIM SO).
KENYA TIMES: How do you go about telling them that they are wrong?
Museveni: Well, we educate them about their real interests, what’s good for all of us. This can be argued openly …. You can also not confuse weak leadership with democracy or confusion with democracy. You cannot tell me that such fellows fighting on the basis of religion or tribal grounds are encouraging democracy. I don’t think so. No, because the best way to test this out: why this woman or man is fighting with the other one and where they clash fundamentally. If you don’t know why they clash, then you are wrong.
KENYA TIMES: Back to Uganda, now, you contested the 1980 elections but never won a seat yourself?
Museveni: It was rigged, there was no election, there was no election. My constituency was stretching from the Tanzanian border up to Lake George. That is a distance of about 100 miles. You see for yourself on the map. You see they were demarcating the constituency in such a way that they would ensure that the people they didn’t want didn’t win the elections. That was problem number one. We call this in English gerrymandering the constituency, manipulating the constituency so that you exclude the people you don’t want to be elected.
We had told them that the constituency boundaries should follow administrative boundaries as much as possible because administrative boundaries exist.
You know in Uganda we have what we call counties and sub counties. Now, a constituency is supposed to have something like 100,000 people. Some had more like 160,000; others had less like 850,000 to 95,000 people. For us, our movement, the idea was that why tamper with these administrative boundaries? Why not have a constituency for Parliamentary elections? At the same time it is the county for administrative purposes and at the same time an economic unit. A development unit because you can use it for economic planning.
For them, they were not interested in this. They were interested in finding constituencies where they didn’t like the man and remove it. Secondly, they were actually removing votes, you know the votes were in four ballot boxes, so that, because there were four parties and if they shook the box of their man and found he didn’t have many votes they would then empty the other boxes.
For us we wanted one ballot box and one ballot paper with all the names of the candidates and the people would make their choice on one ballot paper and put it in one ballot box with all of us looking – but they wanted four boxes and four ballot papers. So, there was no election, there were no elections at all.
KENYA TIMES: How do you react to accusations that you are not Ugandan , that you come from Rwanda and that you should leave Ugandans to sort their political problems?
Museveni: Okay, suppose I was a Rwandese by origin, just for the sake of argument and I have lived in Uganda for many years. Why shouldn’t I take part in the politics of Uganda? …after somebody stayed in Uganda for more than seven years as an African from a neighbouring country, he can apply to be a citizen of Uganda. Even from that point of view – that so and so is not a Ugandan - he is a Rwandese, it is rubbish as far as I am concerned. Indians here. If Indians can be Kenyan, or Ugandan why shouldn’t an African from Kenya or Rwanda be a citizen of Uganda for that matter – if he has lived in Uganda for twenty or thirty years if he wants to stay there, why shouldn’t he have the same rights?
This is rubbish…brother, from these fellows who have failed to run Africa, they are always looking for excuses, scapegoats you know like Hitler, who when he failed to run Germany he started blaming the Jews and said the problem of Germany was Jews. …this is all rubbish.
But anyway, to come to the question, of whether I am a Ugandan or not I am definitely a Ugandan by birth.
Point number two, even if I had come from Rwanda, I would still be proud as I am entitled as I am today, to fight for justice in Uganda – because that’s where I would be living. (WAS HE REALLY FIGHTING FOR JUSTICE; THEN WHERE IS IT?). This is rubbish wajinga, wajinga kabisa , hawa watu shenzitu. (They are stupid, stupid, foolish, foolish).
These are African leaders who are politically bankrupt, they use what we call in philosophy obscurantism, to obscure issues using diversionary tactics. It’s like saying although, I am a thief, the one accusing me is a Munyankole. To me Africans are a wonderful people. I am not proud of these boundaries they were put there by colonialists, by Bismarck, hawa watu ni wajinga kabisa shenzi tu . Instead of taking advantage of the common links like the Bantu people near the lake, you see I can understand almost all these people without so much problem from Mt Elgon. These Samia people, Baluhya , right up to Rwanda and even these Nyerere people across the lake in Tanzania, why can’t these people take advantage of these common linguistic heritage like other countries?
Museveni’s politics is Pan Africanism for political and economic reasons. These people are just incredible, you see there a Banyankole saying that “the hairstyle is made according to the size and shape of the head”.
KENYA TIMES: The media impression is that you are the stumbling block to the Uganda peace agreement by resisting disarmament. What have you to say to these allegations?
Museveni: What is disarmament? It’s an insult to our people. They are talking about bringing foreign forces, Uganda is not a colony. The army is the core of the government, because it can protect and guarantee the government. How can a government by itself propose that it be disarmed? Me, I wouldn’t even whisper about it.
What we need is a small training force. Why do they have so much faith in foreign armies? Obote had British, Korean, Sierra Leonean , Australian, Tanzanian and Egyptian military trainers and even the North Koreans were actually fighting and sisi tunawapondaponda ( and we still crushed them regardless).
It is not necessary, not advisable to have foreign troops or do they want security from foreign soldiers, worried about their own safety? Why should a foreign power play a colonial role or a mercenary role in Uganda? We proposed a formation of a joint force made up about 4000 soldiers from NRA and UNLA and then some observers from some Commonwealth countries to see the integration and formation of a new army.
I cannot fail to get 15,000 soldiers to guard me and I don’t pay them like the present case in Kampala. All we give them is food rations. Nothing more because they believe in the cause of the fight.
KENYA TIMES: But where do you get the money from to afford to buy them food?
Museveni: We get money by capturing it from the regime. We confiscate it; not stealing and we issue receipts for it and we shall account for it to the people of Uganda at a later date, but not to the regime in Kampala.
KENYA TIMES: You are also accused of being a tribalist. That the Movement (NRM) – and especially the people attending the peace talks – are mainly Banyankole and only three Baganda who are alleged to be rejects by their own people?
You see, brother, these people are not serious. First, I am not a Ugandan. Then I am a tribalist, why all these contradictions? I have not cared to select the tribe. All I care is that someone is doing a job. You see brother, brother, in the NRA, we don’t follow tribes, because if we did, it would mean that in theatre, a Kikuyu is the doctor, a Kalenjin is a nurse and the Kamba is a theatre technician. It would be ridiculous.
If you bring tribalism tunakupondaponda (we crush you) until you are not seen and that is why we are defeating these bastards because we look for quality. We have Banyankole, Basoga, Bakiga, Banyoro and Baganda.
KENYA TIMES: What would make the two agree on peaceful solution to Ugandan problems?
Museveni: there are only three positive elements in Uganda. One, our Movement (NRM), the political parties (UPC and DP), if they can only agree to come together and the young soldiers and officers of the UNLA, who staged the coup which was derailed and handed over to their bosses who were never involved in it.
KENYA TIMES: What about Tito Okello and Basilio Okello? Are you saying that they were not involved in the coup against Obote?
Museveni: Basilio Okello and Tito Okello had nothing to do with the coup. In fact, Tito Okello almost fled to Sudan and the fellow who announced the coup was certainly Okello Koro – if you heard the first broadcast of the coup. In fact he defected to our side towards the end of September. He was either a Second Lt. or a full Lieutenant. The Okellos had nothing to do with the coup. I can tell you because I am an authority in military affairs in Uganda. The main motive of the coup was to end the war with NRA not with ex-Amin soldiers. Then these opportunists came in and used the power to try and safeguard their positions.
KENYA TIMES: But there are other fighting groups in Uganda like the UNRF, FUNA and FEDEMU who are asking for a complete disarmament and questioning your Movement’s claim to a special treatment. What have you to say to this, aren’t you afraid?
Museveni: No, not at all, you see brother I will tell you about another Banyankole saying. One day, an old woman urinated on one of these small ants. What do you call them in English…black ants? Anyway, whatever they are called, and the ant said to the old woman: “My friend I have survived many storms, and I am not going to be intimidated by you”